Today I received and accepted Pastor Rick Warren’s apology. Many do not consider it an apology because it lacks “I’m sorry I offended a large part of the population.” Many have emailed me and told me so. Well, as a Christian, I wish to extend grace and assume the best of my brother. I’m not going to get too specific on the semantics. If you wish to see the original event, it’s still on my previous blog. I think it speaks volumes about him. I must admit that I didn’t expect a personal apology stated publicly on my blog. For that reason, I want to leave the blog up for historical record to show that a good man is good not because he is right all the time but because he owns up to this mistakes. I think he’s doing the best he can in his response. Whether Pastor Rick wants to apologize in his public Facebook so that healing can start is up to him. Of course, I’m still a bit confused about the joke in the original post, but that’s another matter that should be put to bed with the sleeping dogs.
I think we can all learn a lesson from this event. I told numerous friends that I’ve lost respect for the pastor until he actually apologized. I think I’ve regained some respect, but the hurt does not go away easily. You see, our corporate memory as Asian-Americans and our disadvantages in this society go well beyond what Pastor Rick said.
As an Asian-American immigrant, I’ve grown up hearing stories (heroic stories) about how my ancestors were warriors and politicians in the Ch’ing Dynasty. As a Christian Asian-American, I’ve fed on the milk of heroic tales from the Cultural Revolution, one of which features my mother who now lives in Northern California. You see? She escaped the rape of Japanese soldiers (my mom was quite attractive) only to be arrested and tortured by the Chinese soldiers (I guess a slightly better alternative). They denied her medical care for her injuries, and made her work in the fields. Yet, someone within the party was gracious enough after seeing her good Christian behavior to care for her on the side. This is my narrative. As for my warrior-aristocratic ancestral land, it has long been confiscated by China to be a tourist spot now (yes, I heard this before my dad passed). I’m proud of my heritage, and I’m almost “white.”
You see? Most of us came to this great country called America, not wanting to make trouble but not without our own painful narrative. Some of us have come from the killing fields of Vietnam and Cambodia. Others of us came from other equally painful places. My wife immigrated to US the day US cut ties with Taiwan in favor of diplomatic relations with China. Just like any immigrant group, whether it is the Irish, Italians, Germans, Jews or now the Mexicans (and the blacks of course, but they really didn’t want to come in the first place), we didn’t come to the US by our own choice. If we would’ve had a better life in the motherland (and if i had my own estate back), we would never come over here to be called “Micks, Wops, Krauts, Kikes, Spics, Chinks etc.” Why else did we immigrate? As we heard about the great melting pot from faraway, we came to participate in an ideal and a great society as well as to make a better future for ourselves and our children. Does anyone realize that most of us Americans are immigrants? Only the Natives are native. Thus, the idea of making fun of one group at the expense of a joke becomes greatly hurtful to us and to all who have their own narratives from their native lands. The hurt goes beyond the joke because the comments themselves defecate on important parts of world history, history that has touched us deeply and personally, stuff that doesn’t even get taught in the US textbooks. Each of us bring part of world history with us. To trivialize such is to spit on the melting pot.
As I see the mess that is our diplomatic relations, I can’t help but see the greater problem of not being able to learn from the narrative of others in this country so that we repeat the same old mistakes. We wonder why other countries hate us. Well, please wonder more about why many minorities feel bitter first before you ponder greater global issues because these issues are tied together hand in glove locally. America can be a great land if we start learning from the deeper and broader world narrative each immigrant brings instead of saying, “If you don’t like it here, go to hell.” This brings me back to why the joke sparked such an outrage. I know Pastor Rick wouldn’t mind me talking about it because it is not about him (well, ok, it’s a little bit about him since he started the ball rolling), it’s about the whole phenomenon of ASIAN rage.
My good friend Dr. Tim Tseng who actually specializes in religion and Asian studies commented that it sure takes a lot to piss off Asians, but when they get pissed, they get PISSED! I chuckled at that. As Asians, most of us just want to come to this country, make a better life for ourselves and blend in, thus giving the false impression that we’re passive and unfeeling (some just want to portray us as passive so that they can say what they want and then add the “just joking” part). As a result, we become the butt of jokes from ALL races (yeah, some blacks and hispanics also like to make Asian jokes, but only if you don’t joke back). We’re easy targets. Just look at the racist stereotypes in Hollywood. It’s like hunting season on Asians all the time whether in the news, in the church or in Hollywood. IF they did the equivalent to other groups (and here, i’m not suggesting that we should or that Hollywood doesn’t do its own racist stereotyping of other groups either), we may have a march on our hands.
Back to the false stereotype of Asian passivity. This is the funny part. IF we all of sudden speak up, we’d be damned. I’ve been told by some (not all) of my white brothers that I’m “opinionated” (So what? Don’t like it? Switch channel, man!), but when they throw their opinions around, they’re just “stating facts.” I guess our opinions are judgmental. As in the case of Pastor Rick’s post, all these people tell us to lighten up. Why? Would they tell black people to lighten up? NO! How about telling the Jews similar things? Oh no, they expect Asians to lighten up. That’s what Asians do! We lighten up. They’re surprised because we actually have backbone and speak up. Our opinions threaten because we don’t fit your docile Hollywood stereotype. So, we now sound judgmental (per Pastor Rick’s original wording)? What if we’re more outspoken as a race? I suppose we would be considered whiners who should “get the hell out of here and go back to China”. I’ve been considered that kind of opinionated Asian many times over. You see? Being a model minority is not all that you imagine it to be. If you speak up on an issue that bothers you, you’d be put back in your place (i.e. your big house and your big Mercedes … note: sarcastic remark not to be taken literally!) and if you don’t, they’d say that Asians are more passive and have no backbone. You can’t win. THAT is our narrative.
So, pardon our swag as we speak up. If you don’t like it, we won’t grow thicker skin, but you can certainly go back to where you came from whether that is Ireland, England, Germany or wherever. Go spit somewhere else! The Natives can stay! I kid! (only slightly)
And thank you, Pastor Rick, for allowing me to indulge myself on this occasion. We aren’t trying to unseat you. After all, we’re just the little people. We only need to be heard. God bless your work. May you achieve what our melting pot can’t in Saddleback … for Jesus’ sake because that’s what God’s kingdom looks like in my Bible. Grace and peace, sir!
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Brian Howell said:
Did I miss something? I didn’t see in what Rick Warren wrote anything that looked like an apology. I’m really disappointed in his response, and, if I can be so bold, maybe a little bit in yours. You throw a few things out there (“Would they tell black people to lighten up? NO.”) that actually just divide Asian-Americans from others who suffer from ongoing racism. (White) people tell (all) minorities to “lighten up” all the time. At least, I hear in around here plenty.
I wish Warren would have apologized for that insulting and dismissive “It’s a joke, people.” That was the worst part of this whole incident. The photo was probably just a mistake – ignorance of what it represented – but the response was deeply offensive. I would still like to hear an apology for that.
samtsang98 said:
Brian, I’m trying to say that different kinds of racism manifest themselves differently, even when it’s done against minorities (like blacks or Asians or Hispanics) which explains my slightly sarcastic remark. In my sarcasm, I’m very serious because that’s been my experience as a minority in this country.
As for Warren’s apology, I can see how it can be construed in the way you put above. I have more than one person said to me, “I don’t see an apology here. I don’t see the word ‘sorry’ here.” I get that. I suppose as a Christian, I’m not hopeful those words will come. IF they do not come, he has just proven my point that Asians are easy targets. OR perhaps he intends that as an apology OR perhaps he meant for me to email him privately next time so that he doesn’t get all this heat. The fact is, plenty of people have told him on the public FB his meme was offensive. I’m not talking about Asian people only. I saw plenty of white faces advising him to take it down. It took 1.5 days to take down.
For me, I’ve settled with letting it go because that’s all I can do. Perhaps it’s up to others like yourself to call this out. You’re a prof in Wheaton. Perhaps, this would help you give an example to your students on being more global in their missional posture. I work mostly with Asians here and abroad. People just think I’m just some angry Asian dude, if I say too much. I’m frankly very tired of this painful episode created by his careless words. Thank you for walking our journeys with us. For me, a stain against one drop is a stain on us all because as I concluded in my blog, we’re in God’s kingdom. We’re in this together.
Zookeeper said:
i appreciate your grace, dr. tsang, especially during pastor warren’s grieving over his son.
but as a pastor and a father, i would not allow a congregant and especially not my children to apologize in that manner. i did not detect any confession, any remorse over what he did/said (both in the post and his subsequent comments), and especially no repentance.
it’s one thing to trust in God’s sovereignty and not allow bitterness to take root, but we are instructed to forgive as the Lord forgave, and that requires confession and repentance.
samtsang98 said:
Totally understand and appreciate your support, sir. I can’t play God and I don’t see into the heart. I will leave a little space for Him. I don’t want to continue to fight with Pastor Rick.
spitz said:
Besides, Pastor Rick believes in an actual hell where people will be eternally tormented and has opted to ally himself with a being that condones not doing anything about it. Whatever you or he has to say about the experiences of Asians in the past, the present belief is that any of them who don’t find Jesus are going to see much worse in the future.
Facebook images might get pulled down, but you’re not going to see those kind of ideas removed from the pulpit, nor are you going to see people discarding their scripture in favor of more positive philosophies. The philosophies exist of course, but why adopt them when you can tell people they deserve hell, have a literal belief in the atrocities of the bible, or tell people that they shouldn’t mind the religion or documents because… haha… they’re not supposed to be taken literally, right? There’s a secret valuable message in the tall tales condoning slavery, rape and genocide. Maybe there’s a secret aliteral message in poster as well?
The simple fact is that people who know why they should be fighting with someone like Pastor Rick were doing so well before he jokingly posted a graphic on facebook, and will continue to do so after it was pulled down. Blowing up about this while pasting the bible as your blog’s banner is extremely hollow.
samtsang98 said:
Whether I believe in a literal hell is not an issue. Even that is an issue we can discuss among Christians. I suppose if you are not a believer, you’re well within your rights to believe the above and I respect that.
Not a Christian said:
Accepting the pathetic little piece Warren posted as “apology” is the type of things that make Asians “easy targets”. There is nothing in the blurb indicating that he was sorry in any way, shape, or form. Letting it slide is basically telling him “hey, we don’t mind what you did.”
When I was in Army basic training a while back, some kid was making blatantly racist comments at me. I asked him to stop, he ignored me. I asked to stop again, he continued on. The third time, I hit him with my rifle and broke his shoulder, and told him that each time I hear another racist comment from him, I will repeat this process; until he runs out of healthy bones or I end up in jail. After that, i heard no racist comment from anyone for the entire duration of my basic training. Violence may be the wrong solution, but passivity is not a solution at all.
samtsang98 said:
I totally understand your frustration, sir. I really do. I just chose to use this opportunity to address greater issues beyond what Pastor Rick did and didn’t do. I hope you don’t judge our faith by the problem we sometimes create for ourselves. Peace …
Radiance said:
“you’ll be put back in your place ie: your big house and big Mercedes.”
I am half Asian..but a Christian foremost…and I find that statement annoying. As if you are lending credence to the petty and shallow ideals of society stating your value comes from the things you own and how much money you make. What college you went to etc…
Lame and not a Christ centered understanding of identity.
samtsang98 said:
I totally understand where you’re coming from. I’m saying that sarcastically. If you look at my parenthesis, I’m suggesting no such thing. Sorry I came across that way. I hope my clarification puts you at ease. Thanks for thinking along with me. I’ll try to keep your suggestion in mind next time I write a blog like this, but I’ll stick to my sarcasm for now because I feel that it does illustrate my American experience.
DTL said:
Even good natured things (jokes) can be perceived as sarcasms. And sarcasms perceived as worse…This tells me it is so very difficult to make any statement these days! I may as well shut up, hahahaha!
Tanya Riches said:
I really appreciate this post, and that you are vocalising them out loud. As I read your experiences, I’m sure it’s not just for you, but for others as well. I don’t really know you, but Sam, can I say, I think you should take the opportunity to actually contact him via email, and let him know where you’re at, and meet up or talk if you can. Perhaps you could contribute towards Saddleback’s understanding of the Asian Americans they serve, and what response would help in these situations. And maybe it also provides opportunity for Saddleback to comment about their church planting and other ministries, and give you a bit more information on how they do things. I know it would take me a lot of courage to actually use that email address, but I hope you do so. Sometimes social media makes people feel so far away, but I think you have a righteous anger going on…. so ride it out to the end! Usually God gives us that for service! 😉
samtsang98 said:
Well, if they want to contact me, they know where to find me. I have my own web page. At the moment, I don’t feel much like talking until I see more public gesture of good will. They can also contact some of the other Asian Christian leaders like Pastor Ken Fong or Dr. Tim Tseng. We’re very accessible. Thank you.
Tanya Riches said:
Sure. I’m sorry that this has ended up like this… I am glad you took the opportunity to connect with them. I didn’t realize that there was more to the story, I just saw a blogpost and Rick Warren’s reply. I don’t want to diminish your voice in this regard, I was just hoping that I could advocate towards a biblical model of reconciliation. Thanks for sharing.
leung said:
Sam, first, I am terrible in practicing reconciliation in my own day to day interactions, so forgive me if I come off as critical or presumptuous. My hope is that my words might add to the conversation in a way that builds us towards Christ, not tear down.
There are a couple things you said that I’m having trouble with. On one hand you say you’ve “accepted Pastor Rick Warren’s apology” and desire to “assume the best of my brother”, but express that you wouldn’t care to personally engage and help this brother understand his ignorance “until [you] see more public gesture of good will” (from your response to Tanya Riches comment). It makes it hard to believe that you’ve accepted and assumed the best of your brother’s apology when you’re still waiting for a more satisfactory gesture. In addition, the idea that you’re waiting for him to make the first move is a bit troubling. I don’t know the Bible enough to say what is biblical reconciliation, but I’ve always felt convicted that waiting for the other party to act first is wrong because it seems to have pride at the center.
Honestly, I’m not a fan of the culture created by today’s social media. It seems like we’ve developed a practice where, instead of personally addressing those who offend us and seeking to start a conversation with them that helps them understand their shortcomings, we take our address to the public audience so that our offense might be globally affirmed and our offenders communally shamed. (I am sorry if I sound hypocritical. I wanted to email you personally, but could not figure out how.)
Like Tanya Riches, I think it’d be really cool if you attempted to reach out personally to Rick Warren, pastor to pastor, to reconcile the offense on the table. Who knows what kind of impact it might make on the testimony of the Gospel for the world to see two pastors divided over racial misunderstanding to reach across to one another and say “Hey let’s talk and understand one another, so that we might grow in our love. Let me understand where you’re coming from, and let me help you understand what’s bothering my heart.”
samtsang98 said:
Maybe but i’m being real. That’s better than most Christian leaders i know. You can call me on it all you want, and you may be right. There was no public gesture of good will when i wrote. Face it, the photo did not merely offend me. It offended a large part of our population. I can’t swallow that. I don’t have a publicist like Pastor Rick. Sorry, this is who I am. Do you prefer that version or this version? Sorry, i’m not that big of a man. Maybe you can pray for me.
leung said:
Thanks Sam for the response and for being real. None of us are that big of a man, but we hope in a big enough God and his promise to transform us and undo the mess in our hearts.
I know you’re not only person who was offended by the post, but Sam, I believe that God has given you great influence. When Huffington Post wrote an article about this situation, it mentioned you first among representatives of the Asian-Christian community. Whether you like it or not, the watching unbelieving world sees you at the forefront of this inter-church conflict.
I can’t help but feel that God can’t be happy to see the way his church is handling this situation over the air of public social media rather than direct conversations. It makes me think of 1 Corinthians 6:1-7 and how Paul was saddened to see the church air out their disputes in front of unbelieving courts. Instead, our unbelieving court is the majority-unbelieving internet community.
Sam, I will take you up on that invite to pray for you because I believe God has given you a lot of power and influence in this situation, even though you may not have asked for it. If I may drive this point further, just think about how Pastor Warren chose your blog to post his apology. It hurts to see the family of God torn like this. I have hope that God can use you as an instrument to bring glory to himself and give testimony for the ministry reconciliation he began.
samtsang98 said:
Thanks. I pray for the situation, Pastor Rick and Saddleback daily since the whole thing broke. I’m not the voice, as i pointed out in my other post on http://engagescriptures.wordpress.com. I just happened upon it, Mr. Leung. None of us is enjoying it. I personally hope when the time is right, Pastor Rick would reach out personally to the HK Christian community more, not just the mega-churches (mega-rich-churches) in HK but also other local leaders and theologians to understand about their context. I also hope he can reach out to the Asian American Christian leadership to understand where we’re coming from. We aren’t the persecutors. We’re dialogue partners who though critical of his original remarks, still treat him as our partner in the ministry. I’m talking about an active reach out instead of thinking, “There’re already Asians in my church” or “Asian-Americans are already reading my book and listening to my sermons” but a real dialogue. IF anything positive can come out of this, it would be the potential bridge building opportunities that can happen. I believe Pastor Rick can use his influence for our greater good as well. The road travels both ways.
Tanya Riches said:
I just wanted to say, I’m so sorry that the saga continued. I have no connection with Rick Warren or his church, but I know that he has done some really really great things in the past. He often promotes local artists, and has met up for coffee with many of my friends. I’m not sure why he didn’t take things more seriously. It is upsetting.
I know that I benefit from white privilege, so I think my comments sound insensitive. But I hope you can help push people beyond stereotypes into a deeper understanding of culture, and what it is to have diversity in the kingdom. May God bless you.
samtsang98 said:
Sure, and I’m hoping that somehow we can come out of the other side having a better connection in God’s kingdom. I’m unsure either but the olive branch has been extended. I’m certainly not trying to dismiss any of his good work. I sincerely hope that he can go beyond apology and try to reach a true understanding so he can set an example for his followers to unite with those who are in different culture, not for social and political correctness but for a better Christian mission. Thanks again for your hopeful words.
Jennifer Lee said:
Hello Pastor Tsang,
First of all, thank you for your original post – it was helpful in letting people know about what happened. I really appreciate it.
With that said, I hope you will forgive me for being blunt (as a good Asian, I have to apologize first before I say anything bold :-)…
I think you sold us out.
You seemed so awestruct and gleeful that he wrote back on your blog that you missed a great opportunity to really help him (and help us).
You had a chance to reach Pastor Rick ask him to publicly apologize but you didn’t.
Instead of saying, “Thank you for your gesture. All the best,” you could have said something like, “Thank you for your gesture, but I think a public apology is needed.”
His posting reached thousands and thousands of people. His little “apology” on your blog will not reach even 100… And by the way, an apology should include the words like “I am sorry” or “I was wrong”… nothing like that was mentioned. It was more of a “please get off my back and leave me alone you annoying Asians”.
I actually thought he made an honest mistake with the first posting- cultural insensitivity and all… but his PRIDEFUL COMMENTS that called us self-righteous and his comparing his posting to the humor that Jesus used on the Sermon on the Mount shows that he is is too prideful to apologize (Sorry to be blunt again- but his rude comments and his refusal to publicly apologize confirms this).
I do hope that you will find a way to communicate this to him and impress upon him the need for a public apology.
In fact, you made it more difficult for others to ask for a pubic apology since he will look to you and say “that model minority Christian leader was satisfied- why can’t you be satisfied??”.
We have been sold out by many people before… I hope you won’t be another one…
samtsang98 said:
Jennifer,
I can see why you would feel that way and frankly, I’m sympathetic to you. I often thought about what you said myself before you even wrote that note (thank you for being thoughtful AND honest). It’s difficult really to balance the two. I think the rest of the essay makes clear that a public apology is needed even though I didn’t explicitly state it. Perhaps, I should. I hope you sense the sarcasm in my rhetoric, but ultimately, any public apology now (and i even thought about this) three days after the fact looks to me like PR and damage control than a sincere apology. I don’t know. What do you think? Do you still feel strongly i should make that explicit? Would that even change anyone’s mind? I really struggle with that. Let me know what you think. i’m open for suggestions. By the way, my post does reach a lot of people. Don’t discount the blog sphere. The last post had 15000 reads in one day. So, i’m not just reaching 100 people as you said originally.
ManW said:
Yeah, the thought about damage control and PR also crosses my mind in how Rev Warren (and likely his PR people) is handling this, especially in light of the Huff Post article referenced elsewhere linking him to past speeches that referenced Hitler/Nazis, Lenin and Mao and the Red Guard amongst other questionable dealings.
Will it just be part of his “whatever it takes” approach while trying to save some face?
Certainly makes me wonder given his past record…
Peace, brother…
Jennifer Lee said:
Hi Dr. Sam,
I’m glad more people read your post 🙂
I really think Pastor Rick needs to post a public apology. I don’t think you need to make anything more explicit in your post… but I think you can directly ask him to publicly apologize since you seem to have his ear for the moment.
I am thinking of the long term effect in terms of ministry in Asia. Rick Warren (for better or for worse) represents Christianity in many areas because of his fame and publicity – I think of the new Saddleback church in Hong Kong for example. BUT, if a non-Christian was to show his posting (and it has spread around enough for people to see and save) they would write him off. They may even write off all Christians… I think that is the main concern…
Without a public apology from Pastor Rick on his FB site, all people remember are his prideful comments that we are just self righteous pharisees and that we should “follow him”. That is not a good way to end this issue.
He should show some humility and just say “sorry”. I mean, his posting to you wasn’t even accurate! It wasn’t “instantly” took down- it was up for a long time and he even had time to comment/respond against us. That isn’t instant. AND he NEVER said anything like “I am sorry; I made a mistake; or I was wrong”.
So, what do I think you ask? I think he needs to apologize publicly- it can’t hurt anymore and it could help.
What I think you should do? Give Saddleback a phone call or write him an email – reminding him who you are (the blogger!)
Thanks for your ministry!
Jennifer
samtsang98 said:
OK, you’ve convinced me. I’ve added some sentences and I’ll email him privately. Seriously, Jennifer, I don’t want to damage the Lord’s work, but I struggle along with you HOW something is the Lord’s work when it is not contextualized with sensitive love. After all, the kingdom is not about my ego or Rick’s ego. Thanks again.
Mike said:
I liked your reply. You navigated to a fine line that holds grace and truth-telling.
As I read it, I was reminded of the late Chris Perkins’ comments on the day before he died: something to the effect of “playing the grace card, not the race card.” In reading his remarks, I was impressed by how he held forth on the need for truth-telling by the African-American community, the injustice and the pain that they have endured, as well as their remarkable history. Yet, he sensed it was the responsibility of the Christians among them that they must persist in fulfilling that need for truth-telling *and* holding forth in grace. Because it would be so much easier to demand satisfaction than to receive and to offer grace.
There’s a huge part of me that wants a demand fulfilled for an explicit request for forgiveness by Warren: directed to you, to Kathy, and to the Asian-American community. But, even as I type this, I’m mindful of a subtle coerciveness lurking beneath my demand. Truth be told, him making the request on his own volition would surpass the fulfillment of my demand.
Thank you for enduring,
Mike
samtsang98 said:
Mike, believe me, it’s very tough for me and I still feel the pain and I sure as hell ain’t getting over it too fast. As a Christian, i really have to let grace win or I’d be a vengeful little person who wont witness to my faith effectively. Thank you.
Richard Chung said:
Thank you for your blog and for your posts… This is helpful when people in our church community ask questions about Pastor Rick Warren and his comments.
I do agree that a public apology is needed and would be helpful.
ManW said:
Agreed. Definitely a fine line to walk…
samtsang98 said:
It’s a tough one, Mike. It’s a great moment of reflection on everyone involved really.
Victor said:
I don’t think a DEMANDED apology is a REAL apology. I believe Rev. Warren made a mistake and a gracious apology is needed. But I, personally, will not DEMAND it. Since my daughter has emailed him a heartfelt response, I will just pray for all who have been affected, including Rev. Warren.
samtsang98 said:
It’s a tricky situation, Victor. Let’s just pray for him, his church and all those who were stumbled by such careless humor.
blah said:
what bothers me the most are the people who supported his tasteless joke and defended him. very scary… humans are truly like blind sheep…
samtsang98 said:
We all can only do what we can, and then pray for all those involved. I think that’s the right thing to do at the moment. Thanks for your support.
Jil and Brander McDonald said:
I’ll believe him when I see a real apology. The types of things he does is absolutely disgusting and hurts the name of Christ.
samtsang98 said:
please pray for him.
Victor said:
Speaking about “cultural sensitivity”, some members from the Chinese community are doing very foolish things, too:
Outrage halts town plan to fly Chinese national flag http://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/09/22/outrage-halts-town-plan-to-fly-chinese-national-flag-83855 … via @BizPacReview
Dude, #BennyLee, that flag represents the CCP’s fake “Republic” (Where no honest citizen has the right to cast a ballot), OK?
ManW said:
That is pretty out there. I have no clue about this Benny Lee, but it sounds like it’s all about attracting the $$$ via use of local government PR. There’s definitely a lot of $$$ flowing from the PRC these days…
samtsang98 said:
I hope that’s not where he’s going with it. Let’s pray that it doesn’t happen. I also see his connection with Kong Fook Church in using their venue for his leadership seminar. I hope it’s just superficial connection because Kong Fook Church is blatantly pro-government and is doing a lot of harm to our christian witness in HK. Peace.
Meredith said:
Dear Dr. Tsang,
I just wanted to say that I appreciate you writing thoughtfully about this event. I am learning a lot from you and another blogger I read about the complexities and layers involved in what happened. Honestly, while I knew right away the post was unacceptable, because I am white and privileged (I am embarrassed to say that, but I cannot not have the set of experiences and circumstances I happened to have), I did not know enough about why. I did not know as much as I should. Please forgive me for that, and thank you for being an educator for me.
Warmly, Meredith
P.S. I agree with those who would like to see a statement of apology on FB. As a public figure, I believe it is a responsible thing to do.
samtsang98 said:
Thank you. I do appreciate the support. I never think of white people that way. Honestly, I grew up around white kids. I am just trying to give voice to a neglected population of God’s great church. Thanks again.
samtsang98 said:
Bro, dont apologize for your skin color. I don’t even think this issue is about skin color. It’s about someone with that skin color committing a faux pas that anyone could’ve done out of ignorance. Your support and your voice are important because it is not an Asian problem. It’s a Christian problem. Thank you again. Your post touched me deeply.
Sarah said:
Sam, thank you for this post and for the courage to wrestle this journey in front of all of us so that we can wrestle and journey too. When I see the African Americans, they have heros who began to pave the way to make their voice heard more generations before us. I respect their journey of standing up for what is right in the midst of so much discrimination and oppression. They have many pioneers who did this in such godly, gracious, but clear and frank ways.
But as Asian Americans, we are just the first generation living here after our parents immigrated to America. People who are older than us came to the U.S. but were in survival mode (in my Korean history–my parents/grandparents recovering from Japanese Occupation, Korean War, & WWII). So it’s only now in our generation that we are struggling to find our Asian American identity and form a more united voice in the midst of discrimination and systemic oppression in our country.
Our voice isn’t the African American voice or the Latino American voice. It’s distinctly Asian American. But so few know it because we are growing into it and we are learning how to voice it. But our voice does add to the voices and journeys of all people of color. And yet the dominant culture as used the “model minority” line of thinking to pit our group against other minority groups, when the real problem is that a dominant culture isn’t letting any of us really in. But as people of color, we need to work together to move race forward to teach those in the dominant culture how to work together with us too–for true justice and multiculturalism because that’s how Jesus made us. He created many cultures (all of us bicultural people included) to know him and worship him.
So THANK YOU for taking the time to be a voice for so many of us Asian Americans. We need more people like you to be a voice especially in dominant culture Christian circles where so many are unaware of their invisible cultural lens (because it’s the dominant one).
Even though Rick Warren’s post was a specifically Chinese one, I do feel like what he said and everything you described was still discrimination towards all Asian Americans. I’m so disheartened by his first and second response as well as his “apology.”
When I saw that he just deleted everything off his fb post and then had to audacity to advertise a Saddleback Hong Kong, I was stunned. His actions silences the Asian American voice. Many of us used our voices (myself included) and all he did was delete us. No word after that. Not even a mention. Just a post that he’s going to start Saddleback Hong Kong.
That’s so discouraging and disheartening. He is a Christian white man who influences so many people. He has quite a journey to go to become more aware of who he is as a racial being (God created all of us as racial beings–white people included). In his redeemed whiteness, he could use the power and privilege that comes with that to work together with people of color to move the conversation of race forward. Asian Americans should be just as valued as African Americans and all other groups of color. Only God can take him on the journey of becoming more aware of his racial identity, but Rick can learn today that what would be loving towards the Asian American community would be to acknowledge that what he did was not ok, give a real apology, and to offer that publicly.
And if he’s not there, then even for you to share that he needs to publicly apologize would at least put in on the table.
samtsang98 said:
Well, I just want to do the right thing. And before anyone else jumps on Sarah for using a “race” card, i’m sure she meant is not pejoratively. She only used the word to describe a “fact”, much like some people call us “yellow-skinned people.” Don’t get caught up with the semantics. Sarah, I also want to say that I do not represent all Asians. Neither am I the Asian voice. It’s my own voice, my own narrative and my own spiritual journey. And if that touches someone, I thank our God for it. Thank you again.
Kitty Wong said:
Dear Dr. Tsang,
Thanks for your teaching.
Did you listen the following messages from Rick? I found it from the web. Maybe, you can see why he posted that picture.
http://www.progressiveinvolvement.com/progressive_involvement/2009/01/rick-warren-compares-christian-devotion-to-nazis-communists-and-maoist-red-guards.html
Why did he compare Christian devotion to Maoist? Is that what God wants us to be?
Regardless, if he offends people in FB publicly, he should apologize publicly.
samtsang98 said:
Kitty, I know that message and find it extremely disturbing. It is deeply offensive to both Jews and Chinese. It’s a dangerous analogy and horrible witness. I don’t like it at all.
ManW said:
Definitely concerning for sure, and makes me wonder a bit about the genuineness of his (non-)apology…
samtsang98 said:
i’m going to let it go, bro. I don’t think he’s racist. Maybe in our complex litigation-filled society, it’s hard to give a good one. It’s not like Asian-Americans are going to sue Saddleback. Man, we’re Christians after all, and many Asians are already very well off.
ManW said:
Oh, I don’t think he’s actually racist either. I do think his choice to reference the fanatical devotion of Maoists/Red Guard, Lenin followers and Nazis to be very unwise and might mislead many to follow blindly. It’s the kind of thing that can make large groups of believers vulnerable to twisting what was once noble and right (and godly) toward something gone very wrong. And we have some church history to live down because of some of that…
Peace…
samtsang98 said:
agree. Very inappropriate, but I’m hoping this won’t happen again at least for our mission to other people groups. Using analogy from oppressive regimes is never good.
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Mel said:
Proverbs 19:11 Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.
Everyone has a story to tell. Everyone has an “excuse” to be offended. Who most of all but Jesus? You can be like people in the world or you can be imitators of Christ. He was God and yet He did not demand His rights, to be treated fairly.
The ironic thing, unless the men in that picture did the crimes you are stating you are guilty of slander. You accuse because of a uniform. Can I accuse you because of your face? Asians tried to kill my father for two years. Should I hold you responsible? I think we can agree that isn’t justified by scripture.
You take offense because you lack forgiveness for past grievances. You need to read Matthew 18 again. Especially about the unforgiving servant and how you should approach someone that offends you. Emailing him was fine. Blogging about how offended you are to create a stir is a sin. Look at the comments. There are ones that will never forgive him because he didn’t word his apology “just right”. I don’t know what scripture they base that one on but it is a sure sign that your complaining has caused them to sin.
All these things I know because of the same struggles.
Proverbs12 Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.
samtsang98 said:
Mel, i’m sorry about what happened to your father, but I don’t make jokes about Asians killing whites, do I? Your analogy does not fit and your usage of Matthew 18 is wrong. I’ll blog about that in another occasion. I wrote a book with that as one of the chapters, but I suspect you won’t bother to read it because you don’t think much of what i’m writing here. Sorry about your dad again, but that has nothing to do with Warren joking about something quite tragic (and he has already admitted his mistake).
Mel said:
You did not respond about any of your sins. I don’t want your sympathies. I didn’t ask for them.
Congratulations you are a true American.
American first
Chinese second
Christ follower third
You are just like most Americans that claim to be Christian. I hope in the end that is enough but scripture is pretty clear it is not.
samtsang98 said:
Thanks for our admonition. I’ll definitely think about it. You don’t know me, and I don’t know you. All i was referring to is Pastor Rick’s usage of an unfortunate image. You have no right to judge me.
ManW said:
Hi, Mel.
It’s a difficult thing. Big part of the problem is Rev Warren is a highly public figure and did this very publicly, including brushing off the offended in the manner he did, instead of responding graciously from the get-go. The platitudes and additional brush-offs from many of his followers also didn’t help.
If it was just a private correspondence, your advice would definitely apply much more easily although we shouldn’t just completely overlook the behavior even as we forgive it.
Some are suggesting we simply shouldn’t take offense at all, but think of it this way, the experience of pain and at least the initial reaction to it is quite normal. It’s not good to insist we shouldn’t feel pain (and have some sort of reaction) at all just because that’s not the glorified ideal — we don’t live there and will not attain to that in this life. We all could do some growing to be sure, and part of that involves pain and working thru it — sometimes, there will be anger, sometimes sadness, etc. or some mix…
Yes, ideally, we would indeed be slow to anger, and that’s something to work on, but meanwhile, this very public incident had jumped beyond that before brother Sam made his blog post.
But yeah, at this point, we should definitely be careful not to let the initial anger fester as some might be doing.
Shalom…
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First time visitor said:
I just wrote this on another blog but don’t think it posted:
I just don’t if this is the appropriate time to bring something up like this to someone who recently lost his son to suicide. I just have to wonder if it’s really the Christlike thing to do to generate this kind of online dialog during what is most possibly the darkest time in his life. If I personally knew someone who experienced something so catastrophically devastating, I would probably want to just love on them and give them their space for some time. I can see why people would be upset with Rick Warren’s post but I don’t think the response has been one filled with grace and love towards a grieving brother in Christ. Even though this is the “internet” and Rick Warren is a celebrity, it is important for Christians to treat each person with the respect and dignity as if they were our own friend….or enemy.
samtsang98 said:
Ask others who have lost sons and daughters, mothers and fathers in the Cultural Revolution please.
Mel said:
Cultural Revolution???? What a completely worthless, heartless excuse to abuse someone. Clearly there are some “Christians” who will never examine their hearts for blackness and will mow down anyone that gets in the way of their pet agenda. Consequently never seems to actually be the gospel but something else they believe to be more important that they wrap up in church talk.
samtsang98 said:
You can interpret it any way you want. It’s up to you. If you think it’s an attack on Pastor Rick, I can’t change your mind. My blog remains my narrative. Peace.
ManW said:
If I may…
I think it. was definitely a judgement call on what exactly to do in this case, and Dr. Sam made it pretty clear that he’s approaching all this w/ as much wisdom and grace as he knows how. He isn’t here blasting Rev Warren unreservedly or anything like that.
Is it possible he and many others, including Rev Warren and his followers, could’ve handled this better? Quite possibly.
I’m beginning to see that we should probably all look to redeem this whole fiasco as an opp for all of us to learn and grow some, not just Rev Warren or those who may have reacted poorly in overt ways on all sides.
What we probably shouldn’t do at this point is to merely sweep this whole thing under the rug as though there’s nothing to dialog and learn me thinks…
Peace…
Kitty said:
Hi ManW,
Agreed. It does not seem that the lesson is learned. Very sad.
The scary thing is what his “followers” are thinking about the issue after all.
I wonder what Rick thinks when he reads what his “followers” said in this blog.
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Ben said:
Mel,
If there’s no blackness in your heart you wouldn’t have written what you wrote. I’m convinced Rick didn’t intent to offend anyone. But just because it was unintentional doesn’t mean there’s no offence. And Rick has apologized which means he acknowledged the offence.
All Sam has done here is help people understand why that photo was offensive. But you went beyond defending Rick. You went into the offensive and started accusing Sam. Your offence IS intentional. Are you not blinded by the blackness in your own heart?
Ben
samtsang98 said:
I’m pretty sure she’s kind of lost as to what I’m referring to in her knee jerk reaction. Once again, for your viewing displeasure. Be informed, be educated and do not remain ignorant. “The Red Detachment of Women (Chinese: 红色娘子军; pinyin: Hóngsè Niángzǐjūn) is a Chinese ballet which premiered in 1964 and was made one of the Eight Model Operas which dominated the national stage during the Cultural Revolution.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/…/Red_Detachment_of_Women_(ballet)
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Tim Fromla said:
This is what I wrote on his Facebook page:
Pastor Rick Warren, speaking about peace-loving, #considerate, full of mercy” James 3:17, I do have question, do the same apply to someone whose heart is prejudicial and rock-hard from racism? I read the story and your apology and I find it disturbing. As a member of Throop Unitarian Universalist Church, an atheist, a person of color and a recovering Christian, I do question the intent of your heart. How so? From the Bible:
Matthew 12:34 how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Yes you apologized to samtsang98 (engagethepews.wordpress.com/2013/09/24/on-accepting-pastor-rick-warrens-apology-the-yellow-mans-burden/), but was it enough? Did you truly mean it or did you apologize because of the multiple complaints?
You did write: People often miss irony on the Internet. It’s a joke people! If you take this seriously, you really shouldn’t be following me!…and it goes on: http://morethanservingtea.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/screen-shot-2013-09-24-at-11-38-53-am.png. Yet even more disturbing was Amy Cheshire’s comment and her support.
Amy condones racist jokes? This is the good works she praises you about? And pray tell pastor, is a racist joke on Asians and more offensive than say the word Nigger? Why is it that white folks cringe when the word Nigger is written and not Jap, chink, gook and so on?
Why is it NOT OK for Christian to write or say a joke using the word Nigger and Asians are OK? Say that you did, would then your congregation or even your denomination fire you replacing Chinese for Nigger? Why wouldn’t they replace you for using any racist terminology or does your faith condone racism with few exceptions?What is in your heart Pastor? Is your heart racist? You spoke racist, and you apologized to Sam Tsang.
If my pastor were to say the same or write what you wrote, she would have been disciplined. Our church/denomination does not condone any form of racism nor will they tolerate a silly racist comment on Facebook. Racism is the antithesis of the Unitarian Universalist Association belief
This post may vanish after posting this and many of your followers, like Amy Cheshire may come to your side. Yet ignoring this comment and not truly correcting your heart is proof why many are turning away from your congregation or many others, because of the two-tiered level of justice and equality.
As you write: Those who like to beat up people with the Bible aren’t wise. Maybe not, but we will hold you and many like you accountable for what you believe in.
Tera Little, Kathy Malloy, Bob Kincaid, Mike Malloy,
samtsang98 said:
Bro, I hear you. I personally don’t think Pastor Rick is deliberately racist, but I also see that he has some blind spots. Based on his previous usage of illustrations ranging from Mao’s People’s Liberation Army to Hitler Youth, he really isn’t very sensitive to some of the worst suffering and their historical consequences. Should every pastor be well-versed in world history? I think so. I’m not immune to messing stuff up, but hopefully I can learn from my mistakes and not make similar mistakes. I hope he’s learned from this event. Time will tell.
alkaline water machine said:
Thank you for any other great post. Where else could anybody get that kind of info in such an ideal manner of writing? I have a presentation next week, and I am on the look for such information.
samtsang98 said:
I’m actually writing a chapter in a book to be published by MacMillan next year on race relations. This is part of a footnote I’ve gathered. I can share this with you. Please be gracious in addressing this issue. I don’t think any of us wants a full-scale war against Pastor Rick. Here’re some helpful bits of info. All the best. Samuel D. Museus, Kimberly A. Truong, “Racism and Sexism in Cyberspace,” About Campus 18 (2013): 14-21. It also severely hurts the Body of the Church (i.e., the Body of Christ). Ellen Wang, “Deadly Viper Character Assassination,” Masters Thesis, (Atlanta: Georgia State University, 2012), accessed on October 5, 2015. http://scholarworks.gsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1098&context=communication_theses The briefest summary of this offense Wang wrote about can be found in an open letter to the authors and Zondervan. https://profrah.wordpress.com/2009/11/03/an-open-letter-to-zondervan-and-to-mike-foster-and-jud-wilhite-authors-of-deadly-viper-character-assassin-a-kung-fu-survival-guide-for-life-and-leadership/, accessed on October 5, 2015. Since then, Zondervan had pulled the book, and the authors had apologized. Instead of moving into a different direction however, Foster the Wilhite, the authors of this offensive book, had moved on to profiting off the publicity of their offense by launching a ministry called People of the Second Chance, apparently, showing that they were given a second chance by God. http://www.renue.me/guest-bloggers-mike-foster-jud-wilhite-people-of-the-second-chance/ accessed on October 5, 2015. So, instead of ministering to Asians and furthering racial reconciliation, their ministry once again turns back on their own restoration and profit. See also Bruce Wilson’s blog “Follow Jesus like Nazis Followed Hitler, Rick Warren Tells Stadium Crowd,” Huffington Post, May 25, 2011 accessed October 5, 2015. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-wilson/follow-jesus-like-nazis-f_b_158295.html Sarah Pulliam Bailey, “Asian Americans upset by stereotypes used in church,” The Christian Century 130 (2013):17, is also extremely helpful. Sarah actually interviewed me for the Pastor Rick affair because I teach both in N. America and Hong Kong where Pastor Rick has his churches.
Devon Mohabeer said:
I enjoyed to find this article. I like your point of view. Thanks a lot. Cheers
alkaline water machine said:
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